While there were many pluses to living there and we did like the health care on the whole (my wife had a major surgery that went very well and cost us a grand total of $100), ultimately we were homesick for the USA and decided to move back in 2013. regarding withdrawing tax free after 10 years, i would guess that contributions and investment earnings would be treated separately, but i’m not really sure. Every Financial Advisor (even Betterment!) You wouldn’t need to wait until 2023. ;-). They say stuff like, “Financial independence is great, but truly retiring from making money? You just might be surprised! Because he can. Great post MMM, and I couldn’t agree more about about having an adequate Safety Margin. *Contributions* are penalty free. He and his family live on $30,000 a year (2016). I am 40 this year and the taxable account will run of fund when I am 55 with the prevailing rate of 2.3 % return. you probably don’t have index funds inside the VUL so in addition to the high upfront fees, look at the management fees within the investment funds inside the VUL. September 24, 2019, 11:30 am. This provides 2 benefits. Check it out. That means that if you have high assets and low income, your children will qualify for Medicaid but the parents will not. We are also contributing to our Kiwisaver accounts(retirement investment funds) that we can’t access until we are 65. It would be hard to safely and consistently earn 33.4% in the stock market (even harder if you have a company match) so I intend to keep this up for quite a while. I know I can move, however, I have a 2 year old…3 soon, and she is the only child so she has some cousins in Toronto and my parents whom are older are near by. This is a very interesting article and it addresses some concerns of mine. The biggest thing I have learned through blogging so far is that expensive/chronic health issues are more common than I would have guessed, and they come up randomly in otherwise healthy people. My Chase HSA charges $2.50/month fo INVESTMENT balances less than $10,000. Also, for those now planning to use money from an IRA before retirement age right now is a good time to convert some of your money to a Roth IRA. I’d welcome any education or clarification, but it seems that one must be careful about boundless faith in the market or in one’s continuing good health. September 15, 2016, 7:54 am, “If the tax rate during your contribution period and your withdrawal period is the same, Roth 401k and Traditional 401k work out the same monetarily.”. Since I should be able to clear the worst of the debt (consumer) by this time next year (! anonymous I understand that the amount of money I am making now (higher tax bracket) is most likely more than I will need at retirement age (lower tax bracket), but since the money that I am putting in the Roth 401k now should be growing in value, wouldn’t it be better to pay higher taxes on less money than lower taxes on more money? November 29, 2018, 9:14 pm. There are of course fees, so buyer beware. At 60 I’ll be getting ~$8400 CPP [2015$] and 67 I’ll get a total of ~$15,100 [2015$] CPP + OAS. Mar 15, 2020 - The accountant of Mr Money Mustache spills the beans. The taxes are pretty moderate if you’re not turning over your portfolio frequently (which you shouldn’t be). I know you can’t consider how things are done in other countries (nor is that expected). If I am earning some unexpected income in my older years and/or tax rates go up I could quite possibly pay more tax then I would have if I had simply used the same $ for a non-registered investment. My wife is Japanese, so this will always be our catastrophic backup plan. How about in 2008 when your balance got as low as $391k? – don’t miss out on opportunities to withdraw from your RRSP early at low tax rates if you have low income year. You can use your investment to help build a world in line with your own values. Still, I have been beating myself up, at least for a while, for not having a side hustle or bringing in extra money etc., because that seems to be “more prudent” or gives you that extra safety margin, you mention. But that’s my total tax for the year. Then once you quit working you can pull out the principal if you want. One of the pluses of DGI is that if you have decent capital, you never have to sell any shares. Third, for folks in high tax brackets (33% and 35%), it may make sense to put the maximum money in 401ks, regardless of if you have enough in it already. So all in all, I sure like the states…. Doesn’t this analysis neglect income tax? The timing of this post is perfect! Then you pay 25% tax when you withdraw that so it nets out to $174,490 They offer both a 401k and a 457. Frank I think you’re GTG. At this point, you can withdraw all of the principal (but not the gains yet, no big deal), penalty-free. Like to hear some ideas on the matter. That account just throws off those gains each year. If my projections for the later years of retirement indicate that mandatory RRSP withdrawals will be in a higher rate than what when I put them even if I jumped up to the 22% marginal rate bracket which is triggered between $44.7K and $89.4K. Look around you everyone – notice the old, the ill, the disabled. No capital gains tax in New Zealand ( yet!). Also – heck yeah to 401k – my current wage payer matches 75% for the first 8% – which, since I max out, is 6% of the gross pay. This is our first year. Our experience with it has been very positive, even though we initially tried to talk the county out of moving us onto it from ACA, which had been ok with paying for. You are correct. -In case you want to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars all at once (to buy an investment property or start a business for example) you could do so and still pay only the 15% tax on gains and dividends instead of the marginal income tax rates if you pulled it from a 401k/IRA, plus your deposits always come out tax free since there are no gains. And if you’re single, you don’t need $40,000 to live a good life. I ignored any incidental income or inheritances or profits you might make on selling your house someday, and the list goes on. Mr. Money Mustache didn’t retire because he was making so much money from his blog. Ideally you want a plan with lots of options. Gerard So I have tried to become more sensitive about health and not just assume it’s 100% in our control. (Unless you get a match). If decades from now, the 401k “grows” to $1m, chances are, it will still only last 10 years. BTW, I don’t know if Vanguard actually administers HSA’s. You’d have to continue paying your Part B premium, but I think it is important to note that Medicare coverage should be far less expensive than 20% copays if you know the system. I don’t think getting divorced would be much of a concern. Cedar Mora Given government debt problems, it seems that something has to change radically. I understand what you are saying though, you want to pay taxes at the lower tax bracket, so contributing as ROTH to begin with would only be favorable if you didn’t make much money while working anyway. Take for instance, cost basis is defined as an adjustable cost that reflects original purchase price of each tax lot, as well as reinvested dividends. However, beneficiaries may enroll in a Medicare Advantage plan, replacing their Original Medicare. Do you dream of retiring early? I was making like $40,000 when I first graduated. Example: Married couple in early 30s has around $100K in Roth IRAs, $30K in a 401(k) and $100K in a taxable brokerage account, but the cost basis of the brokerage account is $80K. Thank you! Okay I see. In the world of macro-economics, what happens when a stuck supply curve meets a rapidly advancing demand curve? I’m now late 30s & don’t really own any in my portfolio because when the market crashed in my mid 20s it seemed crazy to invest in anything other than stocks that were “on sale”. The time to buy stocks is when the market is low. Stocks automatically cover inflation as the stock prices rise over time. Take a look around. I’ve had more than 8 or 9 spine surgeries (I’ve honestly lost count) and am not physically able to work my former six figure job. My strategy is to withdrawal everything out of my 401k, move to the Cayman Islands and just not file taxes ever again in the US. We maxed out 401K’s until we decided to retire in our 40’s. It can even be a single index fund if you want to keep it even simpler: Vanguard’s VTI “Total Stock Market Exchange Traded Fund”. Thank you Mr. Stache, for always easing our minds about early retirement. Seems like it’s most relevant to look at the index that way. Rebekah Youngers Neither one got back to its peak nearly as fast as it dropped from it. Most people get stuck on the same three questions: The great news is that there are easy answers for all three. I would figure this out myself but I am HORRIBLE at math (obviously). As always, I suggest that you only need one thing: a generous bucketload of low-fee index funds. Basically when you’re at high levels of CAPE10 your SWR goes down but when you’re at low levels it goes up. Hey Scott, bonds provide good ballast against stock volatility, but your statement ‘In the case of a stock market crash, these financial instruments move in the opposite direction so the appreciation on your bonds gives you a chance to buy stocks “on sale”.’ didn’t prove true *quite* immediately in the 2008 crash. Identify any opportunities to harvest deferred tax benefits as you go along and withdraw from your RRSP at that time. Think of how many people you know that are on their second, third or even fourth marriage. But what we really want is something like this: This is how money flow really works in early retirement.. November 29, 2018, 3:49 pm. So it gives you that cashflow FOREVER, and you will never even need to touch the principal. December 14, 2018, 2:44 am, NoClaude Anyway, hope this makes sense! OK, I have double checked. So glad I found this thread. What about the Required Minimum Distribution– with the RMD, not sure if the $600,000 could last forever. So, I wonder if it’s just a case of thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. My own call for the next 100 years of economic growth is all of us spending our efforts harvesting the ridiculous amount of free solar energy that is showered on us every day. He and his family live on $30,000 a year (2016). I bought into a rising and falling market, but she did nothing. Another question is whether the funds themselves are producing dividends or if you are initiating buy/sell activity. Not that 6%,etc., would be good, but it’s not 8%. Unless the tax rate on the remaining income, in the lowest bracket, goes to 80% or so, we should all come out ahead. I think I might need to revisit the 401K though. This is VERY important for those who may later be in a higher tax bracket OR those who may later want sell a good-sized chuck of securities from a taxable account for a down-payment on house or other investment. Mr. Money Mustache is here today to answer all of these questions and more. The account stays maxed out and continues to grow. -But as soon as I have the factory I can start paying you back, you can have all your money back in 10 years. – Canada has some pretty great retirement savings plans, but they take some analysis of your specific situation to get the most out of them. ), Heather We’re all drinking beer while we’re writing these comments! I’m reading these “what if” responses and it occurs to me that people who are reading MMM still just don’t get it. I mean, it’s easy to criticize the FIRE movement when it is happening during a long period of neutral to positive market years. For example, about 20% my taxes in the US get wasted on things like unnecessary fighter jet contracts and Iraq. In the right quantity, these are the backbone of a good life and the fuel for personal growth. Similar to a Roth, you contribute after tax dollars into cash value policy. I’d rather just have my principal lined up to go to the causes I believe in, and be ready in case they come up with a miracle longevity treatment while i’m in my old age. Especially important if you do plan to later be in a higher bracket or make a large capital gains transaction. After starting reading your blog I began to wonder if I should keep putting the max (now 17.5k) into my Roth 401k. SCORE! I retired at 47 in 2008. And if you are in the 10 or 15% tax bracket, your capital gains tax is 0%. Mr. Money Mustache can tend to get a little high-level at times, talking about all these ... 401k contributions 401k match Tax Return Total Income Total Spending Net Income Savings Rate. It’s a guessing game. October 12, 2012, 5:40 pm. I can get up to $900 dollars in actual matching from my company (thats the real number after calculating the percentage of my earnings). However, in April this year at 55, I was diagnosed with Stage 2 breast cancer . I would than save tax on those gains because I should be able to keep income below $36900. Much later, sorry, but any recommendations if one doesn’t have a 401k? Some plans offer the ability to loan against your 401k that you can use for a first time home purchase. But the other important part of that decision is the protections that retirement accounts have – no one can take that money even if we get sued and even if we go bankrupt. Mr. Money Mustache is all about flipping the equation. Still think I might make a move to a lower tax, more business friendly and better functioning place at some point now that we're well into FI. This implies the supply side is stuck. downtownshuter Which if you keep yourself mostly healthy and just insure against catastrophic events will last the average person a very long time. If I stay in the States, I will only be able to semi-retire. While we are on a roll here, are there any limitations on how we can invest our savings in the HSA? I haven’t seen ANY FIRE proponents talk about this aspect of planning – if we’re all so well off we can retire, your 4% or 3% spend rate goes flying out of the window if you or your spouse needs long-term care, either at home or in a facility. In common urban vernacular: I lurvs me some free monies! We are fairly entrenched in NC currently. It’s one of the reasons I advocate a nice safety margin in your retirement savings, and also a reason I recommend staying skinny and healthy through your whole life, to drastically cut down on the risk and cost of health problems later in life. Especially, so long as one is young, dynamic and healthy. Any thoughts on this Long Term capital Gains question. The third opportunity to use your investment for good is as a conscious consumer (even if you are a minimal consumer). If you plan on doing part-time work in retirement in a field that has high liabilities, keeping the money in your traditional 401k may make sense. I changed my 401k back to traditional and will also do $5500 in a traditional IRA and deal with the taxes at 70 years old. Right now, it would be about $11k/year. Also about your age and sticking to 10% bonds. January 31, 2015, 5:40 am. So while I still advise maxing out any tax-deferred savings accounts like the 401k, you’ll also need to invest elsewhere simultaneously. Is that true in that I had planned on leaving my money in my 401k and keep getting withdrawls until age 100. Andre (SF) Nader The Wife intends to work (teacher, good medical, Summers off) for the next few years so with the rent we get plus her salary I should not have to touch the stash in any case. Your BIL is lucky to have you! I don’t think a company ROI is any higher just because it pays dividends. Whoever told you that should not be talking to anyone about retirement planning. The activities I chose in my FIRED life result in zero income, but lots of gratitude and happiness. November 29, 2018, 7:40 pm. You assume an 8.8% annual return. It took me two years of research to discover the answer and since then I have been reducing my debt in preparation , paying off the house early with a 2.29 percent mortgage for 7 years as this procedure requires you to have little to no debt. If those things happened you would probably have to pay your full $5k or $10k deductible for the year but that would not be a catastrophic expense if you have $800k saved. Establish those habits while you are earning income and you will have a happy and fulfilling life after you have stopped earning income. He’d be alive today had he used his money to get his transplant earlier. Just have no help or guidance here….do you have any Canadian resources or suggestions to help execute this? Besides investing in Roth or Traditional retirement accounts, you can also invest in a regular taxable account. Rinse and repeat yearly, Mike Racine Ethical investment also provides others with the opportunity to practice “right liveliehood”. So in other words, the United States just has a progressive tax bracket system like other rich countries, chopped up a little differently. Question 7 for how the payments are determined under the 3 methods. What’s the plan for the two, or five, or ten, or twenty-five (to use your numbers) percent of people this happens to? November 29, 2018, 10:46 pm. i just can’t bring myself to lower saving in the 401k when I don’t really need the money. I hope you are right that I will very likely never run out of money, relying on the 3-4% rule, with a little flexibility. TLV, I actually had the same dilemma in 1999. Maybe I’m missing something important here. But I do really think that for “super savers” this is a good question. On your first day of freedom, you log into your account, find the option for what to do with dividends, and set those to get automatically deposited into your checking account. Granted if the market dropped that much you would change your spending habits (which is what this awesome blog is all about!) They maintain that they do not earn enough to max out their 401k contributions. No fighting with the government to use his money to care for him. And no liquidation is necessary, meaning you don’t have to sell and transfer as cash and rebuy you can roll the assets themselves directly. Ontario Canada is doing a terrible job of taking care of my brother-in-law who has a severe mental disability. It is pretty clear that US stocks and bonds will not have moved in opposite directions in 2018. How does the 15% long term capital gains tax impact the years of withdrawing only from the non-IRA, non-401k account? Suze Orman’s tirade against FIRE), rather than having the courage and faith to step away and enjoy our well-earned freedom. snowcanyon ;), Goldlandand1cow I’d probably ask this on the forum rather than comments on an older blog post, but short answer is probably, but it depends. I used real returns from the S&P index and the Total Bond Index over the time periods described below. There will be some sort of theoretical perfect tipping point where you can get exactly the right amount in the 401K when you are 60 to last you for the rest of your life, just as you run out of money in your taxable account, meaning you retired at the perfect and earliest point possible. Hmmmm…maybe the grass IS greener on the other side! They’ll probably put a warrant out for me but they won’t catch me. Think you would be able to handle that? But I don’t claim to be a better forecaster than anyone else (although I do know more about solar energy than most peak oil doomsayers), so I guess we’ll just have to wait it out and see. $40K per annum is sufficient to sustain the modest lifestyle of a family of 4. December 20, 2018, 6:01 am. One other potential strategy for you. For example in Finland that is terrible advice. and ever increasing division of labor. So it would be preferable to have shifted to even less RRSP income by this point and more TFSA or non-registered income. A lot of early retirees will qualify for it, even when they might not want it. November 11, 2011, 7:27 am. Congrats! snowcanyon Alternatively (or if impossible), you could always just manually sell shares every month/or two/or three. I have 2 rental properties that give income of $28900/ year and are paid off. Yet another reason not to own a car– less chance of getting sued in an accident! 1) Although the converted amount is taxable income, if converted during a tax year with little/no other income, it’s essentially tax-free as long as the amount is less than your standard deduction + allowed exemptions. That calculator is really superb. The month before that I spent in California. They may only give the option of a full payout. Health related issues could happen to anyone in your family including yourself. To have $40k/year for life at a 3% withdrawal rate, you’d need $1.33 million, not $1.2 million. Internet anal guy here. We supplemented her SS and the VA’s Aide and Attendance Benefit to cover assisted living for 6 yrs. He publicly shares that the annual spending for his family of three is in that range. We retired in our late 50’s with 40k income. That’s been my recurring nightmare since retiring 18 years ago at 34. I just think that instaed of roth 401 and IRA i would be better off taking the tax savings now and roll traditional IRA to Roth when I stop working . So I can add that to income. It’s safer than relying on any job, because keeping a steady job depends on the overall economy remaining healthy enough to feed your company, your company remaining solvent, and you remaining productive and useful to that company. You can set up a stream of payments to yourself, called “Substantially Equal Periodic Payments (SEPP)”. It’s amazing how long certain “retired” technology manages to keep companies running. That seems very optimistic. So, sure, in theory it covers cancer treatment, but none of the plans cover the doctor or hospital that specializes in cancer treatment. This would lower my income to below $36900 per year. No, we would no longer contribute to her retirement funds if she quit her job, but we also would no longer have a mortgage ’cause she’d take $90K out of her 401 (without a penalty, but we’d have to pay taxes on it – another $28K-ish). My mom only worked part time and my uncle or I stayed with my grandma when my mom was at work. Right now, the American S&P is at about 15/1 at 2700 or so. In theory, the price of the ETF might actually be lower or higher than NAV, perhaps by a lot. February 7, 2018, 12:34 pm. Eroding captial for these expenses especially early in retirement means the capital won’t last as long due to compounding. So I ignore it when examining theoretical dividend income, my “early retirement savings” and so forth. Looks like a great idea! November 30, 2018, 8:58 am. Right now, the VTI fund happens to pay a 1.89% annual dividend, which means that the $500,000 account in that green box above will pay $9000 in annual dividends straight to you. December 20, 2018, 12:03 pm. I agree with your calculations, but I don’t understand how retiring on 40k or 80k a year can prepare for these not uncommon situations. If you take your year’s RRSP withdrawal out in Dec and then file that year’s tax return as quickly as possible the next year you can minimize the amount of time the Gov’t has your money and you do not. For example let’s say on 1MM you kept 200k in cash. So much easier. I am very frugal. Wife works right now and makes $30K/yr and husband is going back to school and next year hopes to start job making 60K/yr. João Pedro Join the Mad Fientist, Mr. Money Mustache, Paula Pant from Afford Anything, and Doug Nordman from The Military Guide for a live Q&A from Camp Mustache! I’m not 100% sure, but I read the entire IRS rules on HSA last year, and the section on travel was vague enough to allow for travel to medical care– even in another country. Today you can buy a new Nissan Micra for about $10,000, therefore inflation is 0%. November 29, 2018, 7:26 pm. 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